Kick Panel Placement

ChrystKevin · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Kick Panel Placement

To all sifus and ICERs alike, noob here and just wanted to know whether placing my tweeters at the kick panel would improve my imaging without sacrificing my stage height?

As of now, quite satisfied with the stage hieght but the imaging is kinda leaned towards the tweeters and my tweeter lows are abit more muffled and lower in height.

Recently heard a car, with I would say less than expensive equipment and kick oanel placement of tweeters, the sound was amazing, center stage imaging and very good stge height but the only thing I did not quite like was the depth maybe a bit to forward for my taste.

So would my plaing of tweeters at the kick panel compromise my stage height?

youngaccordguy · LvL 2 Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 74 Location: KL

Placing tweeters at the kick panels will certainly improve imaging due to the reduction of the path length difference.
Having said this, achieving stage height can be a tedious task.
You will have to experiment with many different panel anglings to achieve a desirable stage height and this can add many sleepless nightmares.

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ChrystKevin · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject:

youngaccordguy wrote:

Placing tweeters at the kick panels will certainly improve imaging due to the reduction of the path length difference.
Having said this, achieving stage height can be a tedious task.
You will have to experiment with many different panel anglings to achieve a desirable stage height and this can add many sleepless nightmares.

Haha, thats what Ive heard, imaging can be improved but achieving stage height is very difficult and probably using the EQ. I prefer the EQ on flat actually.

robinhood · Amateur Lvl 2 Joined: 14 Aug 2008 Posts: 232

With reference to the stage height, power from the amps is one of the most essential factor besides the angling and position of the tweeters.

netken · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Kick Panel Placement

ChrystKevin wrote:

To all sifus and ICERs alike, noob here and just wanted to know whether placing my tweeters at the kick panel would improve my imaging without sacrificing my stage height?

As of now, quite satisfied with the stage hieght but the imaging is kinda leaned towards the tweeters and my tweeter lows are abit more muffled and lower in height.

Recently heard a car, with I would say less than expensive equipment and kick oanel placement of tweeters, the sound was amazing, center stage imaging and very good stge height but the only thing I did not quite like was the depth maybe a bit to forward for my taste.

So would my plaing of tweeters at the kick panel compromise my stage height?

something for you to consider - excuse the crumpled paper ...

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ChrystKevin · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject:

Wah!! Can find pictures for the FD somemore are brother hehe. Thanks for the info bro Very Happy

netken · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject:

what to do - you ask for help mah .... no choice ...

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blue · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject:

Bro netken, very informative man your post. By the way, what is side-bias problem reffering to? Does it mean right is louder than left or vice versa?

Those tweeters look like my old blaupunct ones.

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- JaY - · Veteran Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 346 Location: K.L

blue wrote:

Bro netken, very informative man your post. By the way, what is side-bias problem reffering to? Does it mean right is louder than left or vice versa?

Those tweeters look like my old blaupunct ones.

i think side bias means the imaging comes from the both side instead on center.

ChrystKevin · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject:

- JaY - wrote:

blue wrote:

Bro netken, very informative man your post. By the way, what is side-bias problem reffering to? Does it mean right is louder than left or vice versa?

Those tweeters look like my old blaupunct ones.

i think side bias means the imaging comes from the both side instead on center.

Thats right hehe. Means if youre in the drivers seat, the sound feels too much from your right and vice versa for the passenger side. Currently the problem Im trying to get rid off. Very Happy

ChrystKevin · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject:

netken wrote:

what to do - you ask for help mah .... no choice ...

Thank you, thank you, thank you hahaha Laughing

Good info

dchong@kl_auto · Veteran Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 382

Netken bro,

the info is from Carma magazine rite?

Guess who supplied the Blaupunkt tweeter, pics and info.

Cheers,

Desmond
KL Auto

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netken · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:18 am Post subject:

dchong@kl_auto wrote:

Netken bro,

the info is from Carma magazine rite?

Guess who supplied the Blaupunkt tweeter, pics and info.

Cheers,

Desmond
KL Auto

Can't really remember - it is almost 2 years this article was written if not mistaken.

Tore it off an old mag as it was being thrown out hence the crumpled page.

By the looks of it, its you issit ? then by all means share more with the fellow ICERs here! good to know we have the originating source here ... so which is actually the best position?

guys - ask away! = )

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PlutoII · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Kick Panel Placement

ChrystKevin wrote:

....So would my placing of tweeters at the kick panel compromise my stage height?

Kev, IMO, kickpanel mounting works well only in some cars, especially those with spacious knee area. The car you referred to is like that. However, in the FD, the knee room is restricted/quite cramped, the dash protrudes out a fair bit and therefore, kicks might not work. But no harm to try it out Laughing

The "effectiveness" of kickpanel mounting also depends on that speaker's characteristics (ie: dispersion, on and off-axis FR etc etc). Some speakers sound very bright and piercing if listened on-axis without any EQ, while some others may be OK.

The kickpanel mounting on the car you listened to was only done after it was suggested by an old-school, retired sound-off competitor (R.Clark) who saw that car 15yrs ago when he visited Msia. Even then, after countless mounting positions and sleepless nighmares (as the experienced YoungAccordguy correctly described), did the results become favourable. And it does not hv any external 1/3 octave EQ units.

Personally, I also feel that kickpanel mounting might not give consistent imaging. On some tracks, extreme left and right are still very high. Good. But on some other tracks (recorded differently, perhaps), the extreme left and right collapses downwards...rainbow effect. But i like the spaciousness of the soundstage, and it feels more natural because I don't see a huge tweeter or other speakers on the dash or pillars.

In the FD, and this is strictly my personal opinion after listening to so many FDs, and not intending to contradict/challenge anyone or to seek agreement (including Desmond, the high priest of ICE Laughing

), my areas of concern in the FD would be:

1. Too much separation between the 2 front seats.
Driver sits too close to the side. Not much can be done, isn;t it?

2. Driver's A-pillar area is not "open" enough - blocked by the high multiplex meter (the top of the binnacle is so darn close to the windscreen). Tweeter can be mounted much higher up the A-pillar to clear any sound obstruction, but it could end up too close to driver....hence, the side-bias problem again. This could also cause a noticeable difference in imaging when listening from driver vs passenger position. On the contrary, look at X-Trail and Vios's dash...symmetrical on both sides.

3. Midbass mounting is problematic - too much obstruction caused by the grille with its small little holes and firing almost straight into the centre console's side. On some FDs I've listened to, play a male vocal, and most of the time, it appears mostly"downnn there", but play a female vocal and it sounds so much higher "up there".

Of course, I agree that there could be some FDs out there with splendid imaging characteristics Laughing

But on my customer's FDs with respectable systems installed and assuming little or no time-alignment used, i often find that the sound in these systems is still generally side-biased,and have a relatively lean/weak/thin front midbass sound.The windscreen's radical angle could also be an imaging culprit.

Therefore, on the Fd, if you're serious about imaging and ready to spend some money, I feel that a high-mounted mid and tweet combo could probably make more sense, plus a modified mounting for the door mid-basses (juts out more, and angled slightly perhaps??).....plus a sprinkling of time-alignment. Just my thoughts guys, as a non-professional, inactive ICEer...... Very Happy

ChrystKevin · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:18 pm Post subject:

Nice info Albert. Still remember our talk that day haha Laughing

Anyways, will try tweeter alignment first as its the least troublesome of the methods without time alignment. Of course I gotta wait for my "Flooded" front component set to kaput hehe Razz

Then I can try all sorts of things hehe Twisted Evil

Thanks for the info BTW. Very Happy